La Cuarta Urna (The fourth ballot box)
By popular request, I'm going to try to hit the highlights of an extremely crucial issue affecting the future of democracy in Honduras. It's very difficult to condense hundreds, maybe thousands, of newspaper articles, media reports, and the constitution of Honduras in a blog article, so please understand that this article is only offered as a brief overview of what has been happening and is going on at this very moment. For more details, see La Prensa, El Heraldo, and La Tribuna, which are being updated minute by minute.
Ostensibly, Honduran President Mel Zelaya's proposal to have a fourth ballot box in the November elections for the purpose of allowing the citizens of Honduras to have a say regarding whether or not the constitution should be revised sounds like a democratic measure. At first glance, an uninformed reader might think that those opposed to allowing citizens to vote on the issue are the anti-democratic ones.
The reality is just the opposite.
Continuism
The real motive behind this issue is widely believed to be to change the constitution to allow Mel Zelaya to continue in power as president, a la his amigo Hugo Chávez of Venezuela. The constitution expressly prohibits this and declares any efforts to change those parts of the constitution as illegal and punishable by criminal action.
Most worrying has been the several secret meetings reported over the past months between President Zelaya and the military commanders. Fear that Zelaya would use the military to enforce his will has been widespread. The national congress and media have repeatedly called upon the military to do the 'right thing,' i.e., uphold the current democratic constitution and not perform illegal and unconstitutional acts for anyone, including the president.
Vagueness
No specifics whatsoever are being given as to what exactly should be changed in the constitution. Vague promises of making the constitution "more democratic" are being given. Because of the high level of propaganda (hundreds of millions of lempiras have been spent while the pobladores go hungry and homeless), people have the idea that somehow they will be sharing the wealth (via socialism?) or that the changes will somehow affect corruption − ironic since Mel Zelaya is widely proclaimed one of the most corrupt presidents in the history of Honduras.
On the state-run propaganda television station, Zelaya makes disparaging comments about how the constitution is "27 years old!", thus implying that it is horribly outdated. Concerted efforts have been made to make this an issue of the poor (about 70% of the population) against the rich business owners (of which he is one). The primarily uneducated poor are being easily manipulated with empty promises. There has been no indication that the people will be allowed to approve or disapprove of any recommended constitutional changes. They are merely being offered the opportunity to give a blank check to those in power.
The actual plan put forth by Zelaya is that a constitutional committee (hand-selected by him no doubt) will review and decide the changes in the constitution. I've read the constitution and in my opinion, the problem is not the constitution, but the lack of transparency and the corruption in the way the laws are enforced, or more accurately, in the way that laws are not enforced in Honduras against the rich and corrupt.
Every step of the way, Zelaya's plan has been declared illegal − by popular opinion, by legal professionals, by the attorney general's office, by the national congress, by the lower court and the supreme court. In an effort to legitimatize the fourth ballot box, Zelaya's latest plan is to hold an official public poll this Sunday, June 28, to allow the people to vote yes or no on whether to have the fourth ballot box. This effort also has been declared illegal, but seemed to be going forward with the support of the Honduran military.
Newspaper reports
The 2009 budget has not been approved by the President, resulting in government organizations who are strongly against the 4th ballot box, such as the National Congress and the Ministerio Publico (Attorney General) not being paid in an effort to force submission to the President's will.
Citizens are being denied government-provided medical care unless they promise to vote for the 4th ballot box.
Government employees against the 4th ballot box are being fired.
For the past months, high government officials have been taken away from their duties to campaign in outlying parts of the country. At least one threat of cutting electricity was made to a municipio whose mayor, with the support of citizens, has protested strongly against the issue.
Rumors
Rich and "important" people, including Mel Zelaya's entire family, have left the country.
Though popular opinion seems to be strongly against the referendum, fear is that the outcome of the election, in the way of Central American elections, has already been decided. Mel Zelaya admitted to the media that he won his presidency because of corruption and frankly stated that that is the way it is in Honduras.
Votes are for sale
L. 500 (about US $26) is the going rate for peon votes. The price, of course, is much higher for those with influence − government contracts, important positions in the government, and outright cash payments are common methods of gathering support. An example is cash payments of L.1,000,000 (US $53,000) to congressman greased the way to approval of the ALBA treaty with Venezuela.
El Jefe and I personally have talked to many people who admit they know nothing of the issue but say they will gladly vote either yes or no for L.500. He has also talked to many who do understand the issue but will still sell their patrimony for the right price. The saddest part of all is that these opinions are offered as completely normal and rather than being something shameful, it is considered good business. "If you can't fight the corruption, you might as well make something for yourself."
Current events in the past 24 hours
Late last night, Mel Zelaya fired Romeo Vásquez Velásquez, Chairman of the joint military forces. The civilian Secretary of Defense and generals in charge of the Army, Navy, and Air Force resigned in support of the chairman.
In a special emergency session today, the National Congress declared the firing illegal and ordered the general back to work. The supreme court immediately ratified this measure. The immediate decommission of all election materials for Sunday's election was ordered.
Just minutes ago President Zelaya held a press conference stating that the congress and supreme court are performing illegal acts against democracy and the people of Honduras. He strongly proclaimed that NO ONE was going to stop the election on Sunday. He seemed to be whipping up people into a frenzy and invited all who had vehicles to follow him to a private place for further discussion....and that was the end of the public press conference.The emergency session of the congress was then suspended for reasons of security. Meanwhile, agents of the Attorney General entered a military-guarded area to take control of the election materials.
Simultaneously, the President and a caravan of supporters were also on their way to the military base where the election materials are held.
A Venezuelan airplane just landed in Tegucigalpa. Whether this is to provide support for Zelaya or to whisk him and his family away to Venezuela is not known.
When I see the protests going on in Iran right now, I can't help but think that we may be seeing something like this in Honduras. The difference is that it would not get the same international media attention because Honduras is just not that newsworthy to the rest of the world.
Recommendations from many are that people should stock up on food and gas and stay close to home as much as possible. Visitors ask if they should come or they should leave − the answer is that no one knows what is going to happen.
I received the photo below from someone who questioned whether this "revolution" may have been a long standing dream of Manuel Zelaya.










42 comments:
Thanks for addressing a very important issue. It's shameful that this man has managed to undo years of democratic progress in a mere four years. His flagrant disdain for law and order is the sign of a primitive political mind. I never thought I'd side with the army on anything, but it seems they're our only real trump card in this game. I wish I was in Honduras, if only to see this madman's delusions of grandeur. The guy shouldn't be in charge of a goddamn baleada stand, much less a nation. The hell with him.
-Reggie Thompson
Nice update. Please keep your head down this weekend and stay safe-the wind is blowing strong in Honduras.
"The guy shouldn't be in charge of a goddamn baleada stand, much less a nation." Hahahahaha, I love this! :)
I just now made it home after almost 1.5 hours in traffic on the Anillo Periferico. The gas stations and supermarkets have lines of traffic into the streets, and EVERYTHING (even Campero!) is closed early!
-Hannah, in Tegus
http://adventuresofhannahandcharlie.blogspot.com/
Thank you LG for your timely and helpful blog. I appreciate your efforts in providing this information.
I hope and pray that Mel does not get his way. It cannot be good for Honduras!
Thank you for this detailed analysis, and the effort you put into this.....changing the constitution for personal benefit....incredible....
I've lived in Teguz for 20 years and I've never seen this kind of FEAR. The rich can get on their planes, but for Americans married to Hondurans, leaving is NOT an option.
Stock up bottled water, matches, flashlights, and canned goods. Fill up your pilas even if you have a cisterna. We were told that the water, electricity and cable/internet could be rationed this weekend. There might also be a 10PM curfew. Stay inside, protect yourself, and your home and wait for this to pass.
Sad to hear that a coup is imminent becuase it would be a step back for Honduras' democracy. This is a wonderful country where people just want to work and live in peace. Yes, there is too much corruption but that is a problem that can be solved without the need for instability, constitutional changes and fear mongering.
Ironic coming from a fellow Gringa, but this is what happens when a country falls for a lying man in a cowboy hat. Ha!
This is awful!! Mel is doing illegal actions and HE should be sacked asap!! Sadly, this country has gone backwards during the last 4 years that I've lived here. I can't wait till the day I finally move away. I've lived in other Central American countries, and Honduras has been the worst for me!! Ive personally seen corruption, the "elite" doing drugs and be
Thanks for the recap - I've been searching all over for as much info as possible. I was in the country when Zelaya was elected; everyone I knew thought that he was the best candidate ... I'm saddened (altho not surprised) of what has become of the Honduran government. I'm praying for you (all). My boyfriend/finance is there as well as many dear friends/family.
I hope I have a country to return to with all the "democratic reforms" Mel is making. I hope the truth can be made clear to the poor, who are vulnerable to socialist lies, because of the indifference of capitalists.
Thanks so much for this overview of events, LG. I linked to it from my blog, so that my readers can be informed, too.
Just one more thing that makes my decision to leave the country 6 months ago a good choice. I miss so many of the good things that Honduras had to offer, but now it seems there is less and less reason to be wistful. My thoughts are with the stayers!
well put aaron. honduras is a caudron of mediocrity and this permeates to the realm of politics. I laugh when those on the left claim that capitalism is responsible for the mess in central america as if there has been a true capitalist society in the region. there has been no such thing, what we had and continue to have is a big hacienda with a quasi-feudal system in which those at the top -including the very corrupt leftists who came to power with carlos reina and are today milking the country-, share the profits of corruption. leaders from all walks of life are crooks and part of the problem, not the solution.
by mane
I can't believe that people actually are falling for the Prez' line! He says that the Supreme Court is only there to serve those in power, the rich and bankers. Hey, he belongs in 2 out of 3 of the categories. Then to say the constitution is 27 years old and outdated - what does that say for the U.S. Constitution? He says he wants justice and law but won't obey the laws that have been in place and he vowed to uphold!
This will be a rough weekend for Tegus and the country. I just hope he is chased out of the country and some sembalance of order can return.
Guanaja Sharon
Chavez, Chavez, Chavez...
Why are you so eager to play the Chavez card when dealing with Honduras? Why don't you rather say that Mel Zelaya is trying to gain the ability to be reelected for a second term just as every damn single USA President has practically had for over the past 30 years? Or rather, Mel Zelaya is trying to make reelection legal and possible in Honduras, just like in almost every single countries in the American hemisphere?
This is precisely the kind of wording that you should use rather than marketing your bias and fears when addressing Chavez. Especially when considering that Mel Zelaya's budding relationship with Chavez is just as deep as a 15 mililiters mud puddle. The only reason why he became close with Chavez was as prelude to his attempts to fight for reelection, and readying himself against the obvious and visceral opposition of Hondura's most traditional sectors.
These overtures with Chavez, are precisely the kind of things that has bolstered Zelaya's popularity among campesinos, syndicates, popular organizations of Honduras. In no part thanks to Chavez's gracious squandering of Venezuelan money used to invest in foreign countries to increase Venezuela's global prestige, and influence-- something that is no different from the kind of policy USA has enacted for over the past century!
So, if Mel Zelaya does become reelected, the world won't cease to continue existing. And I am sure we will be able to just sit in front of the computer and read about the OAS meeting 5 years from now, and how Obama and Zelaya so delightedly shared a cup of tea.
Btw, I like your blog's layout. It is so very fresh.
If u base your information on la gringasblogcito, which is based on partialized news (La Prensa? El Tiempo? El Heraldo?? PLEASE!!!!!!), you will never have a full picture of what is goin on....What the President is trying to do, is to move forward a country which has been trapped for decades, disminuish the power that lobbies and elites have used to protect powerful and spoil the poor majority (especially in Congrss and Judiciary). This is a long term process and of course he will need a reelection (only if at least 50% plus 1 of voters support him) to lead the process through. To say that the main reason why mr. Zelaya is risking his life is to govern for 4 years more, is really something that can be believed by ppl who dont know much about politics, who dont know much abt Zelaya's history, who eventually dont know much abt Honduras. And if u leave in Ceiba.....
Have u noticed nobody is writing in this blog from Honduras except la gringa?? And no one in Spanish?
Enjoy your perceptions, but if you want to know, go deeper, just dont stop to mainstream media...
Regards
giacomo, who are you? a partisan of mel? seriously, I know more about my country than you would ever possibly know. I know most of those clowns in the political establishment personally. you are writing non-sense in the sense that mel is trying to move the country forward and creating all of this mess because he is the saint patron of honduran welfare. Yes, most politicians in honduras are corrupt but the stench doesn't stop with the politicians, union leaders, student leaders the whole system is plagued with corruption and a decayed civic view from the participants. mel is part of the problem, not the solution. I would more than welcome a true statesman or woman who had a true vision for the country and let me tell you that I would welcome someone like lula da silva or bachelet but not a baffoon a-la chavez. Our country went trough hell to get the modicum of democracy that we do have but to destroy what little we have is not the solution. tell me giacomo, what article of the constutition do you suggest has to be changed because it hinders the socioeconomic progress of the poor in honduras? I challenge you to tell me which article.
if mel is sincere about social reforms why doesn't he start by donating the tens of thousands of acres he owns? why doesn't he support putting in jail chimirri, his political nephew? no giacomo, mel made a terrible miscalculation and he is on the wrong side on this one. he has to be removed from power and have the presidential designate replace him until the next elections. we hondurans do have one thing, we witnessed the lies in nicaragua, the bloodshed in el salvador and we decided a long time ago that we would not sucumb to those false mesiahs like the big thief ortega of nicaragua.
by mane. 1000% catracho. y escribo perfecto español si quiere qdebatir en español.
Ok, Mr. Giacomo and who are you to be taking part or voicing an opinion about Honduras? And what? Are you impliying that no Honduran speaks/writes english? Well it seems to me that your point of view has no place here. Or maybe you are part of Zelaya's sequito. LG is more honduran that any of us who were born there. And i agree with anon, we have gone thru so much, Carias, Pajarito,... the Nicaraguan Revolution as well as, El Salvador's. I would rather have the military take over the country than having a puppet as president. Heck Topo Gigio would do better, he wouldn't take orders from Chavez. So Mr. Giacomo go and comment about your own country and don't come and tell us what's best for us. We know we have been there. Paz Inverencial
I'm Honduran and I'm writing in this blog, Giacomo. There are Hondurans with anglo names too. And I think Mel ought to be ashamed of himself, but he's just too much of a goddamn inept, incapable, irredemable excuse for a president to do so. I am not a conservative by any means, but I feel this crisis has led me to part ways with any sympathies I may have felt toward Chavez and his ilk. It is really a shameless power grab and deserves to be squashed as such. Tus dias estan contados, tirano. Algun dia pagaras por tus pecados.
-Reggie Thompson
Giacomo, it isn´t for four more years it is for permenent reelection...Honduras is not anything like the United States. You seem very naive to me. Perhaps you should read her blog and learn a few things. Most Hondurans are against this because he is a titere of Chavez...if you do not know what a titere is it is a puppet.
Hi everybody.
So leftist disinformators are also coming to this blog...
Check what some Hendrik guy says in mine:
Democratic rule is on the line, a military coup is feared, but tens of thousands of Hondurans rushed to the defense of the President, filling and surrounding the presidential palace.
Tens of thousands of Hondurans rushed to support Mel Zelaya...
But not even three thousand came...
Shame, shame, shame.
This people have no shame. They lie and they know they're lying. Don't waste your time trying to argue with this people. Just expose them for what they are.
My hondurian sister is afraid to go out and vote because of the "militarized" environment already....-afraid of "balas perdidas"......she plans to stay home all Sunday,and taking precautions for next week...the fact that thousands of people think like her is very, very scary...who is going to oppose this cuarta urna??? hondurians need get out early in the morning to vote, and then go home...and stay put.....may God help Honduras.....
Es dificil contestar a los anonimos, pero tu analisis ha sido seria y te lo mereces. Sin embargo no entras en el merito de las cosas. No soy un fan de Zelaya, se' de donde viene, conoci' sus latifundios en Olancho y le conoci' tambien a el directamente hace casi 15 anios cuando era ministro en el gobierno de Reina (esperanza traicionada por corrupcion, como siempre hasta ahora). Miro mas alla' de su figura, miro a lo que significa para un pais jodido como Honduras, abrir espacios para que no sea solo la elite de las pocas familias que manejan economia y medios en decidir que es lo que los hondurenos pueden ver o leer o conocer o, mas importante, decidir para su futuro.
Conozco a tu pais por lo menos como tu, si quieres acepto reto a discutir y debatir con mas profundidad porque no puedo aguantar esa superficialidad. La caricatura que la gringa posteo' realmente da asco, es la manifestacion de como la oligarquia agarra el toro por los cachos y manipula la realidad. Dime: quien se ha cagado en Honduras durante los ultimos 30 anios y mas? Zelaya????? O, si quieres: te sientes representado por un hombre como Micheletti presidente del Congreso???? Es el, con sus bancos que han chupado como esponjas, el que te garantiza la verdadera democracia y que garantiza que la gente de verdad pueda participar en las decisiones?
Serious questions: is there a law "de participacion ciudadana" in Honduras?
Can an ordinary judge decide that a law is not legal and impede its implementation?
Is it true that more than 400.000 Hondurans signed a petition to have this "consulta" on June 28th?
What would u say if in the US or in any other country in the world a consultation request, conducted by the law, signed by more than 5% of population, would be stopped by the military refusal to distribute electoral material?
You rightly say that Honduras went through hell....very true....but how frustrating can be to go through hell without obtaining any tangible sign of change?? Military dictatorships have ended in Honduras ONLY because the historical momentum had changed in the whole emisphere, for sure not because the status quo had changed internally. Honduras is the only country in the hemisphere (together with Paraguay) having the same traditional parties sharing power almost since independece, and you know better than me (of this I am sure!!) what kind of mafia clubs they are.... So HOnduras went through hell to obtain what? 10 families controlling economy and media? Is this what you call democracy?
Thanks for your answers, anonymous....
Where did Mr. Zelaya violate the law?
Another post was referred to stores and shops closing early and being emptied because of the fear of scarcity...my question is: who do you think has spread those rumors? Who does this help? Zelaya or la argolla?
Reggie:
cuando pagaran los Facusse', los ROsenthal, los diputados y gobernadores que roban como locos y son mas mafiosos que la mafia?? Cuando pagaran los nacionalistas por su respaldo incondicional a las dictaduras y desapariciones? Y porque le llamas tirano a Zelaya? No es un presidente electo?
Deena: who am I to give my opinion abt Honduras? (your question says a lot abt your democratic spirit.....anyway I will answer it).
I lived in Honduras for a long time, I am still very linked to it and have a lot of contacts, not only in SPS, the capital, or the north coast as most of u, but deep inside the country's west, south and east. I dont have a problem if u comment abt my country, why should u be upset if I comment on yours (which is also my second homeland?). You end your post with somethingI dont understand: paz inverencial... what is that?
Por favor.....btw, Honduras has a very good canciller, I discovered her recently, I was very impressed.
Regards to everybody and hope someone will reply, eventhough today's post of La Gringa talks abt WALMART.....
We spoke to my daughter and grandchildren in Trujillo tonight. This is Crnival week there, and the city has cancelled it this weekend due to the chance that violence will break out in an atmosphere where there are high spirits, political unrest, and lots of alcohol. This was not because of some rumors from the dissidents, this was just plain common sense. We're sorry they are missing part of their vacation, but better that than taking chances with safety.
Giacomo, many of the readers here are Honduran residents by birth or by choice, and we are very aware of what is going on in the country. I would hate to see a return to dictatorship, especially under Zelaya
Yeah Patty, and who do you think did spread the rumors of possible violence?? Which party is controlling the city? For who is it convenint to stop a Carnival under a supposed violence threat, while the entire country has not experinced yet any kind of political violence in this crisis? Violence is regrettably part of ordinary life for catrachos, but I have never heard of stopping Carnivals because "mareros" would kill some people or rape some women....
The Romans used to stop the circus in the Coliseum when they wanted the people to get angry with any statement running against the ruling elite....Don't you see any similarities?
Sorry to say, but being a rsident or a citizen of Honduras, does not imply to be very aware of what's going on....and as you read thy situation through prejudice glasses and fake comparisions (Chavez Chavez Chavez), objectivity is very far....
Que les vaya muy bien!
Giacomo I am glad you answered.
First, while there is no doubt that Honduras has been damaged over the past three decades by all politicians and sectors of society that is –for the purposes of this discussion-, irrelevant. The sad history of Honduras’ politics deserves its own discussion and I would be glad to discuss it with you but this is not about history, this is about the actions this one megalomaniacal president.
Second, about the “Ley de Participacion Ciudadana” yes, there is such a law and that law in article 5 clearly states that the law will be executed in accordance to the constitution. Mel is trying to change the constitution, specifically trying to change articles that cannot be changed such as the non re-election of the president. Right there you have the first legal violation by Mel. Additionally, the very same law in article 6 establishes for what purposes that law can be used, specifically for what purposes a referendum would be called for and the purposes relate to public works and requests for public works. The “Ley de Participacion Ciudadana” has absolutely nothing to do with changing the constitution.
Third, I share your criticism of the monster of bipartisanship. But who is to blame for this? The elites? I beg to differ, people vote. Hondurans lack the political maturity to make decisions and I left Honduras fed up with that mindset of “I am liberal because my family has been liberal”. I thought that new parties like PINU and the Christian Democratic Party would open the door to true political debate but the people kept returning to the mud like the proverbial pig. They kept on voting for the same two parties, the same lies and that is everybody’s fault.
Fourth, It is not the military that refused to distribute the materials for this illegal consultation it is the Attorney General and the Supreme Court who have ordered that the military do so and rightfully so considering the legalities or should I say illegalities of this consultation. I am tired of this bickering about what the military did during the cold war. yes, they abused human rights but also yes, the majority of the population turned the other way because the alternative, soviet communism, guerilla terrorism scared us all.
Honduras needs new thinking, new models no question about it. The problem is that Mel is not the one offering either. He is offering the surrendering of the country to Chavez’ interests and an ideology that defines our society in the fallacious dichotomy of the old left: proletariat/bourgeois, and since when has division promote the unity to push a nation forward? This class politics is poisonous, it has brought pain to all societies that engaged in it from Chile, Argentina and now Bolivia and Venezuela We need a change at all levels and Mel is not the catalyst of that change, he is part of the tumor that is eating Honduras alive. As for the Canciller what could I say about Patricia whom I know personally quite well but that she did not inherit a fifth of his father’s brilliant intellect. She is an ideologue stuck in the cold war, a pathetic pawn of history.
so Giacomo, the ball is on your side of the court.
Mane
Giacomo, la politica hondurena no es nada nuevo para mi. No aprendi de la cuarta urna ayer, y a pesar que vos decis que fuiste ministro de Reina, capaz que se mas que vos de la politica internacional. Yo se que los militares desaparecieron a miles de personas en los ochenta. Yo se que han habido varios corruptos en nuestro proceso gubernamental. Pero nadie pudo o quiso hacer nada al respecto. Ahora tenemos una oportunidad de frenar a un hombre que es un oportunista corrupto que quiere extender su periodo presidencial. Aqui tenemos la oportunidad de rechazar lo que es la corrupcion e ineptitud. Podemos decidir que lo que deseamos para Honduras en el futuro son presidentes capaces y un proceso electoral transparente. Desafortunadamente, hay gente que sigue creyendole la retorica populista a este senor, simplemente porque rehusan creer que este es antidemocratico. Este hombre es parte de los "elite" de que tanto hablas. No soy conservador, me considero de izquierda. Desafortunadamente, este hombre es de la izquierda retrograda y obsoleta. Es tan obsoleto como la dictadura militar, como el fascismo y el estalinismo. Simplemente, en un mundo democratico, no cabe un presidente que no tolera opiniones diversas. Todo lo de el es un circo politico y una mentira. Golpe de estado en contra de el? Por favor, el gobierno ha actuado muy legalmente, siguiendo la constitucion y sus leyes. El que se ha tirado a las calles a participar en la politica callejera, algo favorecido por reaccionarios como Mussolini, Franco y otros famosos antidemocraticos, es Mel. Los hondurenos ya no estan decidiendo entre derecha e izquierda. Estan decidiendo entre un rechazo a la democracia o un firme SI a un futuro mejor. Manana veremos lo que pasa. Este hombre ya llevo a Honduras al borde del caos. Para mi, dejo de ser presidente legitimo hace ratos.
Reginald:
el ministro en el Gobierno de Reina era Mel, no yo, qu ademas no soy catracho de nacimiento...como va a ser que conoces bien la politica catracha y no recuerdas que el actual Presidente Zelaya fue Ministro del FHIS en el primer gobierno liberal luego del fin de la guerra fria?
En ese entonces Mel era un ministro muy ocupado y seguramnte enfrascado en las practicas de reparticion de recursos y poder tipicas de los gobiernos centro y suramericanos de esa decada. Me dio' mucho desagrado en ese entonces, y la verdad es que cuando se postulo' hace 4 anios abanderandose con lo del "poder ciudadano", no le daba ni un cinco (en cambio quizas muchos otros que ahora se le oponen votaron por el...o no??).
Los militares en Honduras NO desaparcieron miles de personas ("solo" 184 , casi todas por mano del batallon 3-16 con base en Corquin, Copan si mal no recuerdo), contrariamente a lo que sucedia en esos anios en los otros paises del "triangulo norte", y personalmente no tengo rencor alguno hacia la institucion armada.
Mas bien creo que, cambiados los tiempos y los miembros de las FF.AA., con nuevas generaciones de oficiales, esas pueden desarrollar un rol muy importante en cohesionar al pais, en apoyar iniciativas como las medio-ambientales de los ultimos anios, y muchas otras cosas. Yo incluso les regresaria el derecho de voto, cosa que es obviamente permitida en la mayoria de los paises democraticos, donde no se percibe al ejercito como un riesgo, sino como un "asset" de la sociedad.
Pero nuestra vision se hace diferente, porque creo que ahora tienen la oportunidad de utilizar a un hombre, que seguramente no ha sido totalmente limpio en el pasado y que ha sido parte de la argolla, y que seguramente tiene un "ego" bastante desarrollado, pero que tiene la vision de cambiar las reglas del juego para abrir espacios. De eso se trata, abrir espacios para que la gente pueda participar! O de verdad crees que se pude construir una Honduras justa, equitativa, democratica y soberana en base a las reglas y mecanismo de funcionamiento actuales?
Perdona, pero en algunas partes tu post no me resulta tan claro: dices que el gobierno ha actuado muy legalmente, siguiendo la constitucion y las leyes....bueno la palabra gobierno se refiere normalmente al ejecutivo, que es justamente el que representa y maneja el presidente....Entonces de que estamos hablando??
Otra cosita: la politica callejera, como la llamas, es el sal de la democracia si se conyuga a la representacion por via electoral. Y no fueron solo Mussolini o Franco en practicarla, mas bien ellos la utilizaron para disfrazar sus verdaderos intentos.... En Europa, la region del mundo en donde la economia de mercado se ha desarrollado en la forma mas equilibrada con respecto a la justicia social, ese equilibrio no habria sido posible sin darle espacio a la gente de la calle, a las organizaciones de base, a las categorias que nunca han hablado antes. Pero los poderosos europeos, entendieron que les convenia ceder un poco de su poder (la gran parte todavia la mantienen bien firme!) para asegurar que no hubiera demasiada injusticia que desembocaria en problemas sociales enormes y mas graves para su tranquilidad (las maras, la corrupcion, la desesperacion y el hambre de millones de personas). Es con esa transformacion historica que Europa se ha desarrollado.
Si salen un momento de sus prejuicios veran bien que no se permitiria el establecimiento en america latina de un presidente de por vida o, menos aun, de una dictadura soft, tipo Fujimori en los '90. Las mismas instituiciones internacionales que han condenado el intento de golpe tecnico (OEA, ONU, SICA, MERCOSUR, etc.) no reconocerian un gobierno de ese tipo. Cual seria el futuro mejor al que te refieres?? Otras 3 decadas de presidentes que roban o dejan robar lo robable, que dejan que los hondurenios sigan descuartizados por la violencia y la criminalidad?? No se', que proyecto tienes para el futuro de Honduras?
Saludos,
Mane: gracias por tu circunstanciada respuesta.
First:
Toda discusion sobre la politica de un pais, no puede prescindir de su historia, en eso ya hay una diferencia de vision entre nosotros. Incluso, el caracter egocentrico de Mel hay que inscribirlo en su historia y en la historia del pais. Incluso las ideas que el trata de promover y las que tu usas para oponertele, son consecuencia de la historia de Honduras....como no reconocerlo?
Second:
La encuesta de manana domingo responde al articulo 5 de la Ley que mencionas, ok. Y no me parece que el procedimieno usado viole la constitucion. Si no me equivoco, la propuesta de Mel no es la de cambiar algunos articulos de la constitucion para poderse reelegir, sino que el pueblo se pronuncie sobre si quiere instalar DEMOCRATICAMENTE una asamblea constituyente para REHACER una constitucion. No ves alguna diferencia?
O piensas que la constitucion actual tenga que ser eterna? Las constituciones son como trajes, cuando ya no se adaptan a las curvas de la sociedad, tienen que ser cambiadas a menos que no sean declaraciones de principios nada mas, como la de EEUU.
Asi que la ley de participacion ciudadana no tiene que ver con cambiar la consitucion, sino con abrirle el espacio a los ciudadanos para que puedan participar y proponer. Entonces, si los ciudadanos participan y proponen rehacer la constitucion, la ley de participacion ciudadana cumple con su objetivo de abrir espacios de participacion y NO es violada.
Third:
Yes, people vote, you say. And I agree with you the traditionalism of a big part of Honduran society did not help. But please remind that half of the electors do not go vote... Otro elemento: el tradicionalismo que nos disgusta a ambos, no crees que se refleja tambien en esa resistencia a las propuestas innovadoras que estan surgiendo? Concentrar toda la atencion en el hecho que Mel podria reelegirse, no te parece que deje a un lado la busqueda de nuevas oportinidades, de nuevos modelos que solo pueden surgir de los nuevos actores y no de los viejos (no va a ser Micheletti el que propugne una democracia mas abierta que le reste poder a las argollas)?
Forth:
Sobre las FF.AA. ya he dicho en el post de respuesta a Reginald y por problema de espacio no anado mas aca'.
I agree with you, Mel is not offering new models or new ideas, he is just to be used to open spaces, to let more people develop and express their points of view. So, if you really are looking for these new models, help the country to take this opportunity and try to help to avoid the distortions you fear (and probably you ar right in fearing them, but it is not enough reason to stop this opportunity and let other 30 years pass in this situation).
How do you think that a change could come in Honduras if the only political power is shared between those two parties? Where can change come from?
And, sorry but I disagree also on the vision you have abt Argentina, Bolivia and Venezuela. Bolivia was the poorest country in South America in the last century, and it never had a marxist government....Venezuela, being the fifth oil producer in the world, had 75% of population under the poverty line until 1998 with very neoliberal governments ruling for 25 years...Argentina bankrupted in 2001 exactely because of its excellent implementation of neoliberal recipies, a model student, with no leftist government.........So, what are we talking about? Why can't we agree on the fact that this model ha fracasado and so we should all be looking for alternatives? This could really enrich the debate, and avoid concentrating all the attention (and much of the power) on just one person, instead of the whole process.
Un saludo cordial desde el otro lado del mundo.
Se me hace que los hondurenos que apoyan la cuarta urna han logrado convencer es de que el pais requiere otro "gran hombre" para resolver todos los problemas habidos y por haber. La democracia implica un proceso complicado, largo, y a veces inefectivo. El problema con Mel es que parece que desea echar a perder todo esto con un constituyente que esencialmente es un proyecto que origino con el. No es una expresion del sentimiento popular, ni tiene raices con organizaciones laborales. Claro, ahora cuenta con el apoyo de organizaciones izquierdistas, pero parece que muchas de estas han sido compradas por el ejecutivo para participar en la encuesta. Simplemente, Mel no ha aclarado el POR QUE de su encuesta y su asamblea constitutyente. El circo de Mel el jueves, cuando encabezo aquella turba hacia la base aerea, simplemente no es "la sal de la democracia" en un contexto hondureno. Lo que representa en mi pais es un asalto contra la democracia. Esencialmente, las acciones del presidente en las ultimas 72 horas dicen: "Estas instituciones (la corte suprema, el congreso) no valen nada. Yo soy el unico representante del pueblo. Esta constitucion me la paso por los huevos." Simplemente no puedo respetar a un hombre tan oportunista que no es una buena opcion para el pais. Parece que los izquierdistas de la region creen que Mel de una sola va a quebrar a la oligarquia y liberara al pueblo. No es asi de facil. La accion politica unilateral esta condenada al fracaso, ya que no apoya el dialogo ni cooperacion entre grupos sociales. Yo estoy firmemente en contra de la cuarta urna y de Mel Zelaya. Ojala que manana no ocurra violencia politica a causa de este circo politico que ni debe estar ocurriendo.
-Reggie Thompson
Terrorismo mediatico....en el nombre de Dios....
http://www.laprensahn.com/Secciones-Secundarias/Videos/?v=8wkzcodz2dvh
No !! a la cuarta urna ! Libertad para elegir al siguiente presidente !!
Great debate, folks! I love reading all the opinions.
Giacomo, I only wish I could believe as you do. Mane accused me once of being a pollyanna, but I'm a realist compared to you. ;-) I agree completely with most of what you say, I just don't believe that Mel is the one to accomplish that or even that he has ANY desire to do any more than to use the population for his own purposes. Look at his record for what he has spent on the poor. One $ multi-million program to build houses has spent money, but NOT ONE SINGLE HOUSE has been built in 3 1/2 years. You have to dig to find out the truth about what is going on with all these programs.
You don't know me and I think you are new to this blog. Please don't underestimate my knowledge about Honduras. It definitely is not limited to conservative newspapers. I'll put my knowledge of current events in Honduras up against 80% of Hondurans any day. I'm very comfortable with my knowledge of Honduras and it's arrogant to assume because I am a gringa or live in La Ceiba that I don't know what is going on. I have an idea that your reading material needs to expand a little.
"what article of the constitution do you suggest has to be changed because it hinders the socioeconomic progress of the poor in honduras? I challenge you to tell me which article."
That's the million dollar question, isn't it, Mane? I saw the CNN interview in which Zelaya was asked that directly. He talked and talked but never even came close to giving an answer.
I had to delete a comment above. I want to explain that I don't censor opinions (as is obvious from the comments above), but I can't have comments proposing violence against the president on my blog. In the crazy world of Honduras, that could be construed as *me* supporting such action, which, of course, I do not.
Thanks Gringa, for hosting this discussion on your blog.
I did not use prejudice by telling you that you should use also other sources if you want to have a objective analisys of the situation. I base that critic on the mentions you made (you posted pictures and sentences ONLY against the Consultation). Even today, you put in evidence the requests of the "in whiteshirt" protesters without deepening a bit, and without giving any space to the consultation supporters....you see? Of course you may use your blog as you wish, but not pretend it is an objective point of view.
When the military dictatorships ended, the most conservative sectors said there was no need for a new constitution, given the many problems the country had to face, but we know a constitution was needed. So now this reluctance to accept the fact that Honduras needs new spaces inside its society and these new spaces can be legally achieved/opened ONLY through a new constitutional assembly, sounds a bit as the same terquedad that National Party and conservatives in general would use in the early '80 to dismiss the claim for a new constitution (the present one).
Honduras is described in many international news sites as a "pre-modern" country in terms of its politics and institutional framework......Do you think it may have a future if it continues like this?
Gracias de todos modos and ALL AGAINST VIOLENCE, para el bien de Honduras!
http://www.rel-uita.org/internacional/con_carlos_reyes-2.htm
Coup de Etat in Honduras
Manuel Zelaya Rosales has been arrested this morning at 5:00 am by the armed forces and taken out of the country.
Ed
ARE YOU ALL HAPPY NOW?? Enjoy democracy....enjoy a pre-modern country...
Y no he visto respuestas, Mane, a los posts de ayer, ni tu reaccion a los sucesos de hoy....que pasa??
Not supporting the coup, will give Hugo Chavez and Daniel Ortega the open door they want to establish a communist/socialist regime in Honduras. Honduras is one of the few countries that have said no to communism. There is a lot of room for improvement,but without Hugo Chavez and Daniel Ortega.
It is true that Mel was arrested? I hope so... I am tired of looking those people that only look what they will get from the country.... thieves Presidents and this crazy Mel that is taking our Honduras to the totally ruin. No medicines, no work, it is very sad.
Gringa Fascista! Zelaya Presidente! No a los Gorilas!
Telling is that Castro and Chavez are siding with Zelaya. Good article.
Throughout all these months, we've seen the reactions from the different groups, the ones against the coup and the one supporting it, but I ask myself and I want to ask all of you... Why has been Mel the only one in proposing a fourth ballot box? Why when he was decided to do so, he was immediately sent out of the country? What is behind all this?
It is true that Mel has been a terrible and corrupt president, but it is also true the ones supporting the coup have something to hide. In this "game" no one is innocent, each of the groups are looking for their own convenience.
People ask yourself, Is it really bad a revolution against the government? What would have happened if no one in the past would had revealed against the government? Probably the French Revolution would had never existed, the indians would still be the salves of the europeans and so on. Why accusing people who reveal against the interim government? Why the rich people is afraid the common people take in the power? What are the real intentions from the two groups? Before accusing and taking sides, it is better to read and to hear from both sides...
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