Honduran views on Mel Zelaya and the current events
Military in La Ceiba, HondurasI've been doing a ton of reading of all the self-righteous, conspiracy-theory speculators condemning Honduras and what has happened here. Many of them probably had to look at a map to find Honduras but after reading a couple of misinformed BBC or Venezuela news articles, they are experts. ;-)
The following are some views from a few Hondurans in English. Some of them specifically say that they want to get their truth out to the world, so here's a little help for them to do that.
The Silent Majority of Honduras Speaks
What we Hondurans want
Dear CNN
El Peragamino de la Derecha en Honduras (recent articles in Spanish and English)
Alpha says
Puzzled by Honduras (see several comments from 'Honduran' about halfway down the page)
Still waiting for an update from Born in Honduras
And, of course, the master of them all:
Pensieve
Note: These were just articles/comments that I ran across and they just struck me with their genuine feeling. I did not purposely omit any Honduran pro-Zelaya articles in English, I just did not see any. Amazing how many US American pro-Zelaya articles there are though.
Update 12:17 p.m.: I'm watching channel 10 news right now. I believe this is one of the most respected news channels in Honduras. They are lamenting the fact that only one side of this issue has come to light to the international world and are explaining how all of this came about in a calm, legal, and constitutional manner.
In my opinion, too many people are only willing to believe what they read in English (no matter where it comes from) and choose to ignore ALL of the Honduran media reports and what the majority of people of Honduras are saying. Just because something is done in a manner that it wouldn't have been done in the US does not automatically make it wrong. This is Honduras!
Dig deeper, please! Pro-Zelaya supporters are naturally angry and upset, but there is a lot more celebration going on in Honduras among those who feared what Zelaya was doing to Honduras. To disregard all of those opinions as being from ignorant peasants who don't understand what is going on in their own country or from the rich who benefit from the status quo is damned insulting!
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77 comments:
The army grabing the voting materials is going to be the key to getting this all straight in the world's public preception. I feel Mel was stacking the vote, thought he had his ducks lined up, but my guess is the army has the proof it needs to show that Mel was trying to steal an election. It will all come out in the next two months.
LG don't be afraid. Mel had to leave sooner or later. As for Chavez and his troops, I laugh at that. Chavez and his troops couldn't past muster at a Boy Scout rally. Chavez is all talk, always will be. He will never do anything but talk. The minute his troops had to actually fight, they would piss themselves.
Mel may be allowed to come back in November, or maybe earlier, but I doubt it. Taking him to Costa Rica and leaving him on the Tarmac in his pajamas was the ultimate in humiliation for him. Why on earth would he want to come back after that?
As for civil war get real. No one in Honduras wants to fight it out with anyone else as they are more interested in eating and finding some cool shade to sit in during the day. Most are too impoverished to start or fight a real civil war. Can't eat, can't fight as they say.
Might benefit some narcos however, as the increased military presence in Tegus and elsewhere will be a boon to trafficking routes as they (the police and military) won't be around to keep things in check. So it's a free ride for the narcos for awhile and I am sure they are living it up and moving major loads through while the crisis is in its peak.
Comparing Honduras to Iran is futile. In Iran it's religious and economic. In Honduras it's a guy who wants to be like Chavez versus an elected elite who wants to keep things the same and watch his back walk out the door soon. Since he wanted to try a Chavez act he had to be made to understand he isn't Chavez, despite having Chavez in his corner. See where Mel went? Crying to Chavez, Oh Hugo, I wanted to be like you and they threw me out, help me won't you?
Sure Mel, I will help you. If one of my ambassadors is killed or kidnapped, I will retailiate. As for you Mel, well, you can sit it out in Rica, you were on your way out anyway. That's Hugo for you. All bluster and mouth and little to nothing to show for it militarily in the end.
Thanks LG for keeping us up to date. Now how about a cooking recipe as a follow up on the blog. By tommorow no one will give a rats a$$ about Mel or Honduras. Of course that is wrong, but you know how it will be. Mel was toast and now he is feeling the burn.
The thing that is mind boggling is the support Zelaya is getting from Obama and Clinton - how can they not be recognizing that this guy is not adhering to the Constitution of the country he is running? A number of sane people on the scene speculate Zelaya isn't even playing with a full deck. What is Obama and Clinton's rational here?
lg, if obama doesn't get his facts straight he could be like kennedy responsible for a communist enclave in the region. democrat's since kennedy have shown defficient judgment just like kennedy abandoned cubans in bay of pigs and carter surrendered nicaragua to the soviets well now is obama's turn to show that he has a brain for more than blabbering off a teleprompter. learn the facts predident obama, listen to all parties and you will understand that democracy was rescued, it is stronger today with mel gone and returning mel to power would be a catastrophe because it brings up the prospect of civil conflict.
LG- Thanks for sharing these links. Strange, for all the "pro-Zelaya" fervor being reported, all I hear from my Honduran friends is concern that he will come back.
There's too much rhetoric going around, especially now from Micheletti supporters and those who bring up the specter of "communism". What many here in Honduras among the poor and those who work with them fear is a lack of action to deal with the real evils here - poverty,corruption, and the massive gap between the rich and the poor. A coup won't solve these (nor would a referendum have solved them).
There's always a lot of anxiety elsewhere when a country suddenly changes leadership as Honduras did, even if the majority of the population is in favor. I just hope Zelaya's friends aren't able to destabilize the country now. That happens much too often.
Peru is watching with interest, as Chavez tried to interfere with the last presidential election here, too. It didn't work, but he tried nonetheless.
Its sad to see how Mel is portrayed as the victim. The foreign media should get their facts right before reporting. Instead they just focus in the pictures of the army in the capital.
Lets hope Honduras doesnt ends like Venezuela or worse, as a puppet of Venezuela.
Thank you La Gringa for all the information you provided us. It helps a lot.
I'm an American with Honduran heritage currently on vacation in La Ceiba , and I was concerned at first when I heard of military action being taken against an elected President. But after hearing how angry Chavez is with the situation, it was easy for me to change my mind! And it should be easy for Obama to realize that any bad news for Chavez is good news for America!
The new leadership of Honduras needs to do a better job of explaining to the world the illegal acts of Zelaya, i.e. trying to change certain articles of the constitution. Today, they need to get to the UN to explain this. Frustrating how little in PR this new regime knows.
La Gringa, first of all, I have to say that you are as much Honduran as the United Fruit Co. once was. Pretty sure you moved to Honduras recently after living in USA for the majority of your formative years, therefore totally ignorant of the particularities of Honduran politics (and Latin American politics in general). You probably have been conditioned to see politics as a whole through the eyes of American politics, and include a visceral dislike of social movements, dennouncing them as communism/socialism, and as antithesis of all you believe in.
Therefore, it is not surprising that you are hesistant of calling the situation for what it is: a coup d'tat. Even worse, is that with the stroke of a pen, you choose to erase the indignation events like this has had in the Honduran population, and in the region as a whole. Precisely because you are ignorant of Latin American political particularities. You choose to reduce the rural, working force, support of Honduras to nothing, even when they are the real representatives of Honduras' national majority.
Pretty sure that you must be one of those migrants from USA who chose to move to an underdeveloped country with the prospect of "becoming someone". The same kind of people that choose to migrate elsewhere, and even go as far as rescinding US citizenship, if it means to gain greater tax breaks in countries known for their lacking and weak legal systems, where now, vast opportunities to commit things that otherwise in more industrialized countries would've netted you an infinite array of legal problems. The same kind of migrants that traveled elsewhere to become "hacendados" (land owners) of vast expanses of land, and that decry any attempt of land reform(the same kind of actions that would reduce your parcels and redistribute part of it to cooperatives, rural workers, etc.) as a veritable ghost of communism.
Surely, with Mel Zelaya's illegal removal from power, you see nothing but the protection of Honduras' constitution in accordance to the "will of the people", while omitting such facts such as that that same constitution exists solely to protect the interests of the country's ruling elites, which have a monopoly of the country's politics in the form of the two political parties that have dominated Honduras since its inception.
However, to the rest of Latin America, this travesty represents the possibility of past horrific trends repeating, where gross violations of human rights, the utter usurpation of the political power was done by ruling elites and their military cohorts. Of course, as evidenced by your blog, and even by comments to this same post, the turbulent, hectic times Latin American went through, were probably necessary to rescue the region from a budding "communist enclave".
Therefore, you may not understand on the precarious situation that this coup has placed other countries in the region, with their respective weak and incipient institutions, and their veiled and new attempts at democracy. In other words, events like this threaten to destroy any and all advances in the region in the ways of (status quo) democracy, by okaing the military into engage on similar actions, or rather said, putting into question the country's institutionalization, and demonstrating that the real power over a country is in dispute by factic powers, by which the oligarchies with their money holding the real capacity to sway the balance of power to suit their interests, therefore erroding democracy.
(continued from above)
Here is a question for you, if you, and those like you, are so sure that the majority of the population were against Zelaya, and that the so-called popular referendum was in no ways representative of the populations wishes (besides being "illegal"), then why didn't congress, the electoral tribunal, and the high court, simply allow for the referendum to be carried out? Surely, if what you say is true, that Mel Zelaya had no substantial support, the referendum would've reflected this, utterly delegitimizing Zelaya's aspirations in a more democratic, and certainly less controversial fashion.
Instead, what has happened will only bolster Zelaya's popularity, rightfully anger vast sectors of the population that see no representation in the de facto government, and may even threaten to cause civil unrest, even perhaps a civil war (which of course, I am sure if such things ever happened, that just as you "chose" to go to Honduras, you would then choose to leave it). And to the ignorant anonymous that claims that hunger impedes the poor sectors of Honduras to take arms. No, it is precisely hunger and necessity that has been the driving force in the spirals of crime and violence that has infected Central America. Now, Zelaya's removal has given an opportunity to have the population politicized, therefore, that same hunger would turn to the fuel necessary to engage on a civil war. It is precisely the same kind of fuel that was prevalent in the 70s, 80s, in the civil upheavals of the different countries. Hunger and indignation is what they need to want to fight a war, lead populations to fight a war (not communist brainwashing, because hardly did any of those who took arms even know what Karl Marx, or had even the ability to read his Capital and Communist Manifesto). The only thing that seperates would be rioters from becomming a belligerant force is the lack of arms, not the lack of food or will. And we all know how impervious borders are...
If Mel didn't have the support of Congress, the Supreme Court, the Aristocrats and wasn't allowed to have the support of the voters, why was a MILITARY COUP needed to get rid of Mel?!?!
Honduras is truly a few decades behind the US as Macarthyism floods the country...
yet again I ask, I demand that these miscreants who write trash answer this question:
what article of the constitution is responsible for the socio/economic malaise in honduras? you anon, the one who says the constitution only protects the interests of the rich please explain to me how the constitution does such thing? what article mandates poverty? go ahead, enlighten us.
the fact is that the constitution is rather progressive but it is not applied and if this is the case with this constitution it would be the same with any constitution so long as hondurans don't change their mindset about civics and public service. if mel is such a devout benefactor of the poor then why didn't he campaign on that premise? the historical fact is that mel turned to chavez in 2007 when he ran out of money halfway throught the fiscal year as his government wasted money all over the place. he tried to get more loans but was denied because the signs of fiscal malfeasance were clear so mel turned to chavez who is more than willing to fund his political whores all over the region. is any leftist writing trash on this blog proposing that we surrender our country to chavez only to save mel's failure? sorry but not.
Everybody Together!!!
"MICHELETTI FACISTA LADRON Y GOLPISTA"
Jajajajajajaja!!!
Que pendejos esos nacionalistas...
Another Honduran view, VERY different than yours!
revistazo.com
None of this really matters. No one is even recognizing the new right wing extremist government, so Honduras will just have to BS until the elections next year. Of course, they have a good track record of BSing!
My wife and I drank champagne last night in celebration of yesterday's events. June 28,2009 will go down in history as the day that Honduran democracy was saved!
Please read Mary O'Grady's opinion piece in today's Wall St. Journal entitled "Honduras Defends its Democracy, Fidel Castro and Hillary Clinton oject"
I really don't believe some of the rubbish that's being spouted in the above comments - especially the idiot who seems to be reading from Chavez's Little Red Book!
If the Honduran people want Zelaya back, then where are the millions of demonstrators across the country? A couple of thousand in Tegus, 500 in San Pedro and 800 in El Pregreso doesn't seem to me to be an overwhelming show of support for Zelaya. This morning there were 20 (yes, 20) demonstrators in Olanchito and there were no police or military around at all.
I'm sorry, LG, but I'm glad I'm not an American. If I was, I would be ashamed of the claptrap that's emerging from the mouths of Obama and Clinton. Considering the USA's involvement in Latin American politics over the past century, it seems to me that democracy is the last thing they seem to want for Honduras or the rest of the Americas.
I tell you what - let's have a referendum in Honduras to see if the Honduras people want Zelaya back - only this time make sure Zelaya can't fix the polls first!!!
I'm confused, if he(Zelaya) broke the law and he was removed from office, why did congress need to lie about his resignation? This is definately a MIS-information war at its finest. Cnn is constantly contradicting themselves. Amazing that Zelaya could have the connections(media) and technological know how to launch a world wide mis-information war. Can somebody please clarify. thanks.
Oh, I forgot to say - has anybody told the demonstrators in Tegus that they won't be getting free transport, free food and L500 from the government this time?
uh oh. Say bye bye to telesur, looks like they just got the boot.
Telesur abruptly interrupted coverage to broadcast the words and cries of Adriana Sivori, Telesur correspondent in Tegucigalpa, denouncing she was being detained, along with her cameraman, by military forces in Honduras under orders by the new government or coup dictatorship(depending on what u read).
Hey LG-
Just wanted to say to Anon who thinks that you are ignorant of Latin American politics, and seems to think Mel wants to protect the poor. Have you researched about MEL? His farther is known to have killed priests and nuns because they were educating his workers and his workers figured out he was ripping them off. Mel is from a rich family, and Honduras does not want Communism. Simple as that
Got another question? sorry but i read alot and there is soo much to discern. Was Zelaya holding a poll, a referendum, or something else? and what was it for? thanks
i was reading that micheletti was trained at Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation in fort benning, georgia and honduras spent $861,823 between 2002-2006 for the training at Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation. i also read that he was born in Lombardy, Italy. Is that true? if it is wouldnt that violate the same constitution(article238) he claims to defend? doesnt that sound fishy?(not trying to sound facetious)i would really appreciate any feedback. thanks again
The problem with this putsch is that it undermines the long term viability of civil society and democracy. Who in Honduras or outside of Honduras will believe Honduras is a democracy if the military can and does impose its will anytime it pleases? In a democracy, unpopular politicians are defeated in elections or impeached and tried by relevant authorities or by some other legal mechanism. They are not deposed by the military even if they are unpopular. That the legislature, supreme court and military along with business class would stand up and cheer for this does not speak highly of their commitment to democracy. If Zelaya was engaged in illeagal activities, the putschers should have used legal means to stop him. Their use of force destroys their own credibility.
just read that micheletti was just of italian decent. guess that answers one question
I have been looking at the way the rest of the world has responded to Zelaya's ousting and I agree - I think he should be allowed to return to Honduras.
Arrest him at the airport, read him the charges and lock him up - preferably in either San Pedro or Tegus prison where the prisoners don't seem to care much about civil rights.
That way, we will be "respecting democratic norms and the rule of law" as so often quoted by that well-known comedy duo, Obama and Clinton.
the courts must be tough in Honduras. just reading someone there charges amount to a guilty charge. riomonga clearly deplays the mind set of the pro(new) government movement. maybe it isnt about justice and just a power grab after all. how else can walmart sell 2 dollar(and the us dollar isnt worth anything) sweatshirts(good thick cotton ones) if latin america isnt the cheap labor force for North American corperations(read the FREE TRADE AGREEMENT). the wool was pulled on that one!
Once again, people are looking waaaay into this!!!!
Mel Zelaya was looking for a referendum, but was pushing a poll!
In either case, how the hell do you justify masked military coming into your room in the morning and forcing you out of the country!!!
That mere act proves that Mel wasn't half the threat these aristocrats are making him out to be. If Mel didn't have the support of the military, if he didn't have the support of Congress, if he didn't have the support of the Courts, if he didn't have the support of the aristocrats that flood people like LG's head with lies, then why was a military coup soooooo necessary?!?!
And to the person above who said "where are his supporters", you obviously have very little knowledge of Honduras. I marched AGAINST FLORES in 2002 and ended up with two black eyes.
Riomonga seems to overlook the fact that, like LG said, THIS IS HONDURAS!!!! Half the people don't even know what's going on, and the majority of the other half don't really want to march against the whole frickin Honduran military, displaying once again who really runs the country.
Finally, THIS ISN'T ABOUT MEL'S POLITICAL BELIEFS!!!! So stop your Macarthy rants!!! This is coming from, once again, a Conservative Republican who was part of Pepe Lobo's Campaign!!! This is about whether a military cup was necessary on account of a referendum!
This isn't the 70's...
What does the military think they'll doing? Simple, preserving the democracy and liberty of the nation!!!! And while they're at it, preserving the lifestyle that they, the corrupt Congressmen and the aristocrats of La Ceiba, San Pedro Sula and Tegucigalpa provide at the expense of the third world country.
Has anyone considered the idea that Zelaya maybe wanted to extend presidental terms in order to actually get something done?!?! In a third world country like Honduras that takes a larger percentage of education funds and puts it towards useless military power each year, what can possibly be done in 4 years?!?! And people wonder why Honduran presidents spend the first two years getting in and the last two years "getting out" (If you know what I mean).
Yet they say; "Extending presidential term limits will give too much power to the president and make everything corrupt". Yet those same people ignore the fact that, much like in the US only to a larger extent, Congress, who has no term limits, runs things and if a country like Honduras has a history of a certain problem, yet switches presidents every 4 or less years, you might need to look somewhere other than the "corrupt president" for the answer.
As someone who has lived in Honduras, its VITAL to realize, that many of the people in the small country live day to day and have never left their town's boundaries, much less voted or had their opinion heard. So when you hear the term "the people" in Honduras, it usually refers to the aristocrats from the three major cities, who have the money to back Congressmen and even more importantly, have the means to vote!!! Of course, the aristocrats don't seem to like when some liberal president like Zelaya comes along and proposes a plan that, god forbid, might give some usefullness to the role of the president at the hands of Congress. They like their money, their power and their false sense of security at the hands of the military, so they flood the "polls", "public opinions" and "newspapers", making outside spectators think that this is some sort of unity golpe de estado representing "people".
Macarthyism shouldn't work but it does. The aristocrats much rather see a corrupt military dictatorship that protects their private interests than any signs of progression, which is the exact reason why Costa Ricans laugh whenever Honduran politics are brought up.
Chavez? How about Truxillo....
Shame...
thanks for the feedback, anonymous
So, I wonder, LG, will you complain when the military decides they want to suspend the constitution next year and perhaps run all foreigners out of the country? What's to stop them? If they can simply overthrow the government when they choose without so much as a whimper from business and civic leaders, then surely they could do anything they want. Maybe next time you won't like their agenda so much.
I've met several members of the Legislature over the years. Not people I would trust to hold my wallet if you know what I mean. The first one was a bald fellow from Olancho. He stole and misappropriated so much relief money following Hurricane Mitch from a church organization that he worked for that he managed to get himself elected to the Asamblea. Nice. He ended up dying in an airplane crash before he could do any more damage. Point: Honduras is a kleptocracy.
With All Due Respect, Gringa, the majority of people who you claim are celebrating this, are most likely wealthly and affluent groups from La Ceiba, who hardly represent the totality of Honduras. Just because hundreds of thousands of people aren't marching in the streets doesn't mean everyone supports this. How many people marche in Germany during the rise of Hitler? Despite the majority of voters voting for Gore in 2002, the majority of voters didn't walk the streets in 2002! Why does public views have to be defined in Honduras by how many people march or what the television stations say. I am offended by anyone who says that.
Mel, Mel, Mel, El Puebla 'sta con el!
(I am in no way comparing this event to the tragic Holocaust, but was merely trying to make a point that people don't always protest visibly. My apologies.)
Hay, que lindo! Telesur gets a little too close to the truth, and...why not capture them?
Pa La Gente De Honduras: Estamos con ustedes siempre y no vamos a dejar que una dictadura asi toma el control de la democracia de nuestro pais.
I feel very sad because what difference is the western developed countries and ALBA ? Everybody is trying to use money to control the weakest and the poorest. Honduras government did not ask the international community for help but in return they created more confusions for Honduras. We always say, Do what the Romans do so if this is the only way to remove an idiot who thinks he is above the law, the supreme court and the justice system in Honduras,k why give him face ? It is easy for the international community to criticize but why not chec their own records ? On the surface , everybody is nice and sweet but behind close doors, these same so called civilized countries pollute poor countries like Peru with their mining projects, polluitng the rivers and environment, the war in Africa, Russia, for minerals, gas, oil and diamonds. How noble are you ? Give Honduras a chance to grow and be mature on its own law and rights. What is wrong in your countries may not be wrong in Honduras. We all have different values. If the entire country , the churches, politicians, Supremen court, High courts are all united to oust this clown, who is USA or UN to justify what is right or wrong in Honduras ? By whose measure ? Isn't this similar to a domestic issues ? Nobody ask the international community for their opinion but everybody is quick to give their opinion. Why? Because all these people have one way or another bribed someone and would like to see the same puppets in office. Are you any beter than Chavez, Pretga or Catro ? Everybody called this a coup. Is it a coup ? Did the general took over and declared himself the new President ? He is just following orders in the democratic way being ordered by the Supreme Court. So if the clown is not removed, What will happen on Sunday ? Allowed the stupid Zelaya to go ahead and ditribute the ballots which are all being delivered from Venezuela ? Is this democracy ? Not unitl you are a Honduran citizen, you have no right to create more confusion by muddling your interest in a country who have suffered enough already from corruption, natural disasters, poverty and hunger.
Why they didn't arrest him instead of expel him? We can't fight illegality with more illegality.
There is no law that can be used to expel the president and there isn't anything about it in the resolution of the supreme court. It was an illegal procedure and now we are suffering the consequences.
Micheletti said it was all legal, where is the evidence?
I am not a follower of Mel, not at all, I just think Micheletti and company made a huge mistake and now the country is in big trouble. Micheletti said they didn't have a choice but there was a choice, the legal one!.
"Hey LG-
Just wanted to say to Anon who thinks that you are ignorant of Latin American politics, and seems to think Mel wants to protect the poor. Have you researched about MEL? His farther is known to have killed priests and nuns because they were educating his workers and his workers figured out he was ripping them off. Mel is from a rich family, and Honduras does not want Communism. Simple as that"
Your statement seems to contradict and invalidate itself. True, Mel isn't a paladin of the poor, and he is in fact of the dirty rich gentleman's club. This is enough to counter your statement, and others fears of communism. Mel, no-way, no-how would rescind all his material possessions in name of a greater ideological goal. So, such fears are grossly unsubstantiated. Especially considering as a second anonymous clearly points out: Zelaya became close to Chavez only as recently as of '07. The reason why he did this was to gain political leverage with important sectors of Honduran societies, and financing.
This kind of action, of going past ideological boundaries, is precisely the kind of action a serious statesman should do, a pragmatist who is well aware of the problems, and doesn't fear to keep the possibilities open for solutions no matter where they come from.
Of course, McCarthyist conditioned people like LG, and riomanga, instantly bark at any overtures to Chavez as the second coming of the anti-Christ, or communism (as it is more despicably known). Amusingly enough, I fail to see the flaws at accepting money from Chavez, a person who is a megalomaniac without any real power to do anything in an international basis, but that is generously giving money, opposite to making multimillionaire loans to the IMF and the WB, to whose loans, a series of demands is always attached, usually in detriment to the receiving countries social fabric (and a chronic dependence of said loans, as the ruling elites that receive them squander it as they please).
But I guess that for riomaga, it is much better to whore out Honduras to the United Fruit Co., the IMF, and WB, than to take advantage of easily obtainable funds no matter where they are coming from.
If anything, in my opinion, the best possible scenario would've been the referendum that Zelaya to pass, and assuming that he won (AND the respective powers of government went ahead and bring forth the necessary reforms to allow his reelection), without the support of the PLH/PNH, forcing Zelaya to create a third party, and winning the Presidential elections to break Honduras' legacy of two-party rule.
______
To n1cnac: as it is tradition in weak countries such as Honduras, the constitution is a shield to protect the ruling elites that usually monopolize government (Honduras is a stellar example, with 2 parties controlling government since ever). When it serves to break the laws they simply ignore it, but when enforcing the law suits them they suddenly become one of the Constitution's greatest defenders (look for example at Ricardo Maduro, a Panamanian born Honduran President, despite a constitutional ban prohibiting foreign borne to become President). Examples like this proliferate around the region and throughout history.
Seriously, I do wonder if this crisis won't have aftershocks in neighboring countries such as Guatemala and El Salvador, where "leftists" might have control of the government (and to boot Alvaro Colom is immersed in a "crisis" of his own), but army alliance, is with the oligarchy/elites, and through their economic power bring political power to its knees. Of course, I do not expect supporters of the coup like LG to understand the ramifications of this.
"So, I wonder, LG, will you complain when the military decides they want to suspend the constitution next year and perhaps run all foreigners out of the country?"
Your comment shows that you know absolutely nothing about what is happening here in Honduras. Sorry, but it's true and I don't have time to try to educate you any more than I already have in the prior articles.
"Who in Honduras or outside of Honduras will believe Honduras is a democracy if the military can and does impose its will anytime it pleases?" -- Please do a search of my blog for 'democracy' if you want to know my opinions about "democracy" in Honduras.
So many of you are judging Honduras based on the US laws, customs, and constitution. This is not the USA! This is not an issue that you can hope to understand based on a few superficial articles -- many of which are full of false information about dictators, murders, and such nonsense.
Also, a lot of that red Chavez koolaid floating around, I see. ;-)
More rubbish from the Obama/Clinton brigade, I feel!
Yes, I live in Honduras. Where 75% of the population have cell phones, where local TV and radio channels are broadcasting 16 hours a day and where you can buy at least 2 if not more Honduran newspapers daily.
So don't tell me that half the population don't know what's going on!
I did a straw poll in our village this afternoon to sound out local opinion about the exit of Zelaya and the new government. The village is fairly representative of the country as a whole, ranging from very poor people, relying on handouts from relatives in the USA, to wealthy landowners who own local cattle ranches. 95% of those questioned were well aware of current events (in fact some of them updated me as I went round the village). 85% were in favour of Zelaya going, although half of those questioned the method of his departure. Interestingly, nobody I spoke to actually wanted him back!!
When asked what Zelaya had done for the poor during his tenure, the only thing that anybody came out with was the fact that the poor got free electricity (if they didn'
t use too much!)
So before you start criticizing me or anybody else for their opinions, get out and speak to the Honduran people and get the facts.
Why aren't they protesting? Because they have nothing to protest about (not as far as Zelaya's downfall is concerned)
Why are you seeing protesters in Tegus? Because their benefactor isn't around to give them their daily handouts.
Why don't you all read the excellent article in the Wall Street Journal ( http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124623220955866301.html) or its Spanish translation (http://www.laprensahn.com/index.php/Ediciones/2009/06/29/Noticias/Cae-un-soldado-de-Hugo-Chavez) - then read ALL the comments (that should keep you out of harm's way for a few hours) and then many of you may be a bit more qualified to understand the current situation in Honduras and what the Honduran people wish for the future.
Thank you.
Ah - that must be the Obama koolaid kicking in!! :-)
Hmmmm...Obama Koolaid is so much better than Macarthy Moca!!!
I never thought I'd see the day when a useless sack of shyte like Mel Zelaya would be lauded abroad as a harbinger of freedom and progress. The man is perhaps the most useless thing to crawl up from the Honduran political swamp in recent memory and would have turned us into more of a backwater than we already are. I for one am glad he was overthrown. If congress had impeached him, woiuld he have gone quietly? Hell no! He would have sent a mob to intimidate the legislature. I can't believe that international leftists have this knee-jerk response when any left of center individual, no matter how retarded, is somehow threatened. Just because he was leftist does not mean he was a good president! The man didn't even have a plan for governance! He was doing everything any damn way he pleased! I am a left-of-center Honduran, but I'm sick of so many misinformed imbeciles speaking about things they know nothing about! The crisis in Honduras is a highly nuanced, complicated situation! It is not the "lost decade" of the 1980s anymore! Zombie Reagan is not pulling the strings here! What you saw yesterday was a blow against demagoguery and a victory for the rule of law! I'm getting off my soapbox now. All you university, fair-weather leftists can go back to your conspiracy theories, I'm just happy we won. VENCIMOS, JODIDO!
"I'm suprised you weren't thrown out of the country at gunpoint for even attempting to carry out that poll"
That's the sort of stupid comment I expected!
I (and LG too, I believe)am making the point that it you don't live here and live amongst the people, then you don't know what's going on.
I suggest you go back to your leftie websites, keep drinking the Chavez/Obama koolaid and put your head in the sand - we can do much better without your support.
As anyone can see, everyone is allowed to express their opinion (no matter how idiotic it may be). However, anyone who doesn't have the intelligence to express their opinion without being vulgar isn't worth the time it takes to read.
My blog. My rules.
"My blog. My Rules" No wonder you support this coup....
Must be fun to delete posts, hold the press captive, do whatever you want. Civil Liberties? Screw em.
Read the message. If you can't express yourself without being vulgar and insulting, you don't get to. That simple.
You really do your position harm when you resort to personal insults about someone you don't even know. It just implies that you probably haven't deeply researched your viewpoint either.
Profanity is the crutch for the conversational cripple.
FINALLY!! CNN in esañol is back on in tegus!!!!!!!
1. If Sunday's vote had NO LEGAL weight, why was it neccessary to point guns at Mel and send him out of the country?
2. What kind of democracy kills freedom of the press?
I can't wait to see how those military freaks deal with Chavez, Obama AND Europe. Jajajajajajajaja!!!!
Hi LG,
I visit your blog every so often and found your comment on the WSJ article and the ALBA emergency meeting intriguing. First time leaving a comment.
I wanted to get your perspective regarding the ruling a few months back by the Corte Suprema de Justicia (CSJ) allowing Micheletti to run for President this coming election. I’m sure you are aware that the Honduran Constitution’s “articulos petreos” prohibit the President of the Congress from running for President for the term immediately following his/her term. The same article prohibits anyone who has held the office of President for running again, either immediately after his/her term or ever. The Constitution, Article 374, states that articles dealing with who can be President or run for President can’t be changed (again, the so-called “Articulos Petreos”). Honduran Constitutional Law is nothing more than a legal potrero. Isn’t the only mechanism to change the Constitution supposed to be an Asamblea Nacional Constituyente? Aren’t “articulos petreos” unchangeable? This is true when it fits certain interests, as the document has been modified often by Congressional decree. So, the question is posed to those who have posted their endorsement of this coup d’etat: What happened to defending the Constitution back then? Wasn’t the “Cuarta Urna” about giving people a voice about changing the “articulos petreos” of the Constitution? Quite the irony that those who are tripping over themselves decrying the “illegal” vote, thumping their chest, and pronouncing a “defense” for the Constitution, Rule of Law, and Constitutional Order are the same cast of characters that wiped their rumps with it on the Micheletti question not long ago.
Someone posted a comment referring to the events as an “alleged coup” even though the constitutional order was followed. Say what??? It would behoove people to revisit the definition of a coup d’etat. It is the displacement of government by a small or critical state apparatus. In Honduras, the Legislative, Judicial, and Executive powers are constitutionally equal and none subservient to the others. It is the Executive that enforces laws and not the Legislative. As such, the removal by military force to a third country of the elected President on orders of the Legislative branch to the military – mind you that the police enforces the law - is…how should I say it…unconstitutional and undemocratic? If Mel was found violating the Constitution, then whatever process equivalent to impeachment should have been drawn up and not this cowardly snatch, grab and dump act by Micheletti, the military, and Co.
cont...
cont...
I am a conservative and a regular reader of the WSJ. I don’t subscribe to any socialist agenda; however, I am a firm believer in the rule of law and this coup d’etat is an affront to that concept and should not be allowed to stand. The overthrow of a duly elected President over an apparent Constitutional dispute is a grave threat to political stability and the concept of the rule of law in many fledgling democratic states. This is why President Obama, Secretary Clinton, Secretary Ban Ki-Moon, Secretary Insulza, and countless other country leaders have strongly condemned the act. Rightly so! The Chavismo bogeyman is also laughable. Let’s not forget that Venezuela’s voters in 2007 rejected Chavez’s constitutional amendments that were purportedly aimed at establishing a dictatorship. I guess that even in Venezuela voters have a say on constitutional issues that affect them. Hmm…interesting…I thought dictators/fascists didn’t care too much about public consultations.
It has been quite interesting to read comments on those who support the coup and view it as a defense of Honduran democracy. I’ve found it quite amusing to see how people have gone for the proverbial “shiny nickel” and I see it as a reflection of a very low level of sophistication as to what really happened here. The reason I started my first paragraph with the CSJ’s ruling allowing Micheletti to run for President – he lost to Elvin Santos, another person who shouldn’t be running if the Constitution is followed – is because this whole issue has not been about the Constitution. This whole issue is about the perceived threat to the established interests and power elites of the Law of Citizen Participation or Ley de Participacion Ciudadana. The fourth article in the pre-amble is Key when considering that 65% of the population lives below the poverty line and they have historically have had no voice or political power in forcing politicians and the state to act in their general interest. The Citizen’s Initiative mechanism of the law enables citizens to gauge opinion or formulate proposals to address problems affecting them collectively. So here, the “cuarta urna”, pretty much a public opinion poll was a Citizen’s Initiative that was essentially quashed by vested interests. This coup has pretty much nullified citizen participation to only those questions “allowed” by those in power as opposed to issues that arise at a grass roots level and brought to politicians for action. So, who loses? It is rather sad to see people applauding the quashing of a mechanism by which the citizenry can force politicians to act in their best interest and also a mechanism that can be used a tool for political accountability. I guess “manipulation of the poor” to fit minority interests is democracy. “Manipulation of the poor” to allow their inclusion and participation in democratic processes is a threat to democracy and constitutional order and should not be allowed to stand.
This, LG, is a defeat of democracy as opposed to a defense and strengthening of democracy. Truly sad. Truly sad.
IKAROS
PS I was born and raised in the country.
ikaros,
this is both bad and good for honduras precarious democracy. bad because like you I support the rule of law but good because in the absence of a perfect rule of law so long as people have freedom there is hope. under castro there is no freedom in cuba ergo no hope. ditto for venezuela and increasingly in countries that join chavez' circus. isn't it interesting that brazil, chile or mexico don't join that circus? notice how the poorest countries, the most backwards are the ones in alba. anyways, the good thing about this is that in november there will be general elections and yes, it's likely that the people will elect yet another mediocre politician but at least there is freedom. we cannot ignore the desire of chavez to intervene and rule by proxy and quite frankly it's about time that chavez is stop in his tracks because bush first and now obama are like deer looking at the headlights ignoring the growing threat from that dictator.
IKAROS -
That you read WSJ obviously makes you much more sophisticated.
PS
Also born and raised in the country.
Ikaros,
You forgot to mention that you "haven't set foot in Honduras for over 14 years" (your words) so you're not really an expert on the current hopes and expectations of the Honduras people, are you?
You also forgot to mention your work in Iraq, a country in which the USA carried out an extreme "coup" - perhaps you have put aside your principles in order to follow the American dollar.
I found Ikaros's comments extremely informative, especially his analysis of the Honduran constitution and its selective enforcement by those in power.
Instead of attacking Ikaros (who has the cajones to not post anonymously, unlike Anon 11:28), why not discuss the merits of his argument?
(I've been trying to find an English translation of the Honduran constitution to no avail--anybody know where it is?)
Anonymous 1 -
Any comment on Micheletti allowed to run and the constitutional implications of such actions vis-a-vis the "articulos petreos"? I don't quite understand where the curtailment of freedom comes from. Care to comment on the Ley de Participacion Ciudadana? Can you expand how asking the citizenry of Honduras if they want Presidents to serve more than one term curtails freedom? Can you explain how asking the citizenry to express an opinion becomes the threat of Chavez rule by proxy?
The Chavez so-called threat to democracy in Honduras, and the rest of L.A. for that matter, is as real as La Sucia, El Cadejo, and El Duende put together in a dark alley around Cementerio General in SPS.
I wonder why you're Anonymous...anything to hide?
Catracho -
Thanks for pointing that out. In my editing I left out: " I don't think that the WSJ can be considered an objective source in anything dealing with Chavez. It is as objective as Fox News!"
I guess you need to be more than a simple mind to see past the "shiny nickel". Since you were also born and raised in Honduras as well, care to comment on Micheletti being allowed to run in spite of the "articulos petreos"? Care to comment on the Ley de Participacion Ciudadana?
Anonymous 2 -
I haven't set foot in the country since '94, but my immediate family still lives there and as such, I understand intimately the hopes and expectations of those living in Honduras and the difficulty of the life there. In the places where I've lived here in the US, I have been lucky enough to come face to face with that reality as well: the hordes of illegal immigrants, mostly from the lowest economic strata, that have to migrate to survive.
My experience in Iraq and Afghanistan is exactly why I have much more of an appreciation of the concept of the rule of law and the consequences of its absence to a country. The fact that I've worked in both places has no bearing on the discussion here. Care to comment on Micheletti being allowed to run in spite of the "articulos petreos"? Care to comment on the Ley de Participacion Ciudadana?
I wonder why you're Anonymous...anything to hide?
IKAROS
What I want to know is why ex-prez zelaya didn't spend the money and resources used on all his recent bs "poll" on something more serving to the peasants!!! IE: education, housing, health, food etc!!!!!! Oh, wait, that wouldn't have gotten him what he wanted! POWER!! He's helping himself, NOT the people who really need it.... IMHO :-)
A summary of the constitution in English.
Honduran constitution in English
I read a spanish copy (my own personal copy!) so I haven't looked at this one and don't know if this one is includes all of the amendments -- there have been many, especially to the requirements to be president.
I wish I had time to address all the comments. I'll try to get back to them tomorrow, but Ikaros, I wanted to mention that Mel Zelaya has been the master of "manipulating the poor". His government propaganda channel was very convincing and full of falsehoods.
You say that you haven't been here in 14 years, but do you read the Honduran newspapers? I don't think that you can really have an understanding of what is going on now without knowing what has been going on here for the past 3 years. I don't mean that as a challenge, just a fact. FOSHDEH has some reports that you might be interested in.
When you refer to "The Chavez so-called threat to democracy in Honduras", I'm not sure if you are talking about a possible invasion or you are talking about Chavez affecting democracy in Honduras?
I'm enjoying reading the comments but I just don't have time to respond to all right now.
FOSDEH Reports
Luz said...
Thank you, LG, for allowing everyone to express different opinions. At least democracy reigns here.
I'm a Catracha living in the U.S.
I have two questions/observations for everyone to respond to:
1) Regardless if one is pro or con Zelaya, one thing is conspicuously missing from everything I've read/heard/watched (and I'm not making any prejudgments): what is the justification in the Honduran constitution for removing Zelaya the way it was done, rather than peacefully? For example, in the USA a president in a similar situation would be impeached and then tried by the Senate. Does the Honduras Constitution permit removal of the president without a trial? What clause of the Constitution permits this?
2) Poverty: I've read this week that 50% of Hondurenos live on less than $1 per day. Honduras is the second poorest country in the Western Hemisphere after Haiti, and one of the poorest in the world. In light of this, the current political "crisis" in Honduras is laughable: neither Zelaya nor Micheletti has any clue of how to improve Honduras' poverty. Do any fellow commentators, or La Gringa, have any specific suggestions/comprehensive plans to eliminate Honduras' poverty?
#2 Start prosecuting corruptos!!!!
Nobody can deny that Zelaya was a complete disaster as President of Honduras. Did you happen to hear his rambling speech at the Presidential palace last Thursday where he cursed on TV and accused Micheletti of smoking it "too green"? "Problemas insuperables de salud" in the forged resignation letter? Sounds more like they were reading Manuel Zelaya's official mental health diagnosis.
Yes, Mel was elected into power by the people. If Hondurans would have known that Mel was going to turn a hard left and become a supporter of Chavez, they would never have elected him into power in the first place.
I know Mel personally. He's a flirt, vulgar, narcissistic, conceited, pushy, a bully, and surprisingly VERY wealthy. This whole "I understand the poor" act fools only the ignorant. His family business used to cut down protected national forests in Olancho and sell the lumber. He likes to partake regularly in illegal substances and has a weakness for women that he isn't married to. Unfortunately, he managed to pull the wool over the eyes of a few vulnerable sectorsand they BELIEVED because they need to believe in something since they've been ignored by every other political group.
What about the gripe porcina, the teacher strikes, the rising cost of gas, the lack of a national budget for the past year, the crime, the kidnappings, narcotrafico. Everything that you can imagine can go wrong in a country, has gone wrong under Mel.
The political/elite/educated/periodista bunch that supported Mel only wanted a piece of the money pie. Carlos Eduardo Reina? A wife beater who will never live up to his family name. He's wealthier than 99.99% of the population and his father's dream was to make Honduras a socialist nation. Eduardo Maldonado? An idiotic journalist disguised as a Christian that sold his soul to Satan for some easy cash. Patricia Rodas? Mel's mistress whose very wealthy family has exploited the poor and Honduras for years!
80% of the people I know - poor and rich in the mix, are HAPPY about Mel's ousting. The other 20% were promised something in exchange - a job, electricity, water, or "una ayudadita" and are now angry that they didn't get their cut. They hope the new government has the guts to withstand the ridiculous international pressure.
I am VERY disappointed in the American and International communities reaction. We have been allies to the US for everything! Why haven't they supported us? Because it wasn't done when the US said now and how? The US Embassy should explain to Obama and Hillary the truth. They have failed miserably to convey the truth about Honduras. The OEA is a dying animal standing on its last legs. The UN is quick to talk about Honduras but stood by while other Latin American countries sucumbed to Socialism. Do they WANT us to be Socialists Chavistas? It sure seems like it. There is no support for countries that want to REMAIN democratic, but the US can forcefully "liberate" countries so that they can BECOME democratic?
The media is biased and CNN Espanol shows clips from Telesur - the Chavez channel. LOL I'll never rely on CNN Espanol for my news again. Thanks to LG for giving us an outlet that sheds the light on the truth and see Manuel Zelaya for what he is: a shiny new penny in Hugo's pocket.
LG - I read Honduran newspapers in addition to other sources of country information. My immediate family is there and it seems split in terms of what just happened. I'm familiar with the content and source material of the FOSDEH reports as well.
I know what's gone on politically since Mel's election and his political strategy. In terms of false promises to the poor, I don't think he's unique in his incompetence and inability or unwillingness to do much.
Chavez is the convenient bogeyman in this farce or the classic red herring in the argument. Let me ask you this, please tell us about the "threat" that he poses to Honduran democracy and its institutions.
Luz -
#1 None
#2 Alchemy
Mita -
This might come as a shock to you, but France and most of western European countries have socialist economic models of government! Unbelievable how we let this happen!
Democracy and the rule of law need to be respected. That is why the USG has taken the position is has taken. What just happened in Honduras is much more of a threat to democratic principles that the straw monster Chavez will ever be. Tyranny of the minority -- i guess some consider it majority since it aligns with their views -- or even the majority for that matter is not democracy.
IKAROS
I am very unknowledgable about the situation in Honduras but I have been reading more the last few days. I came across this article yesterday which I found interesting. I have no clue how accurate it is. http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/21817
What does everyone think about it?
Also this post http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/21831
Oh btw, I am canadian and no reason to take sides. I just found this topic interesting.
What is really a coup? Or why I lost faith in international news.
Personally I am very sorry now, seeing news on the internet because the opinions of people (say, journalists) whom fall in ignorance of the constitution of Honduras. The news, with not half the facts, are giving judgments against the movement to preserve the constitutional order in Honduras. Deposition of Zelaya was to preserve this order, not demolish it.
Anyone who has lived in Central America, lived or studied its history knows that a coup happens when a president was deposed by force and put in his place a military junta. This has not happened in Honduras. Appointing a temporary president so we can get to elections in November and thus maintain order, preserve the constitution and prevent armed conflict (that was cooking) if Zelaya was able to change the constitution.
The political crisis, whose outcome by force I regret, reached a "point of no return" with the presidential ruling about “the public opinion poll” to call the Constituent National Assembly. The day before the popular consultation (as it was called) the executive (Zelaya) approved the following law:
"Instructions to all units and organs of government: Secretary of State, decentralized and devolved institutions to enter and actively implement all the tasks assigned to them for completion of the project entitled: Survey of public announcement of Assembly National Constituent Assembly which is an official activity of the Government of the Republic. "
Read with emphasis the National Constituent Assembly. For those who don’t know the purpose of this group would re-organize the country (the state powers, the constitutional form, etc). For this the first step is to dissolve the National Congress, the Supreme Court (the other two branches of the state).
"The ALBA is just like a mutual aid society for autoperpetuación in power. They were elected democratically by promises to fight corruption, but most as soon as they took office, focused all their energy on changing the constitution to stay in power indefinitely. "(La Prensa)
It seems that they are all following the same script. Act 1: Introduction to the country as an idealistic -whether leading a military coup attempt, like Chavez, or leading violent protests such as Evo Morales and seize the headlines to instantly become the center of national attention.
Act 2: After winning the presidential election, to change the Constitution to introduce a clause that allows re-election.
Act 3: Just passed the Constitution, to bring forward the next presidential election.
Act 4: Once reelected, accusing United States, the Church and the oligarchy of an assassination attempt, and use this pretext to imprison opposition leaders and closing media critics, paving the way to govern with no opposition, and assume absolute powers. (Taken from La Tribuna News)
Democracy does not imply permanency in power. Zelaya was an unpopular president, who came from the right and left with the left, this year he could not even pass the national budget.
In these difficult days the Honduran people need understanding and support from regional bodies and the democracies of the hemisphere to strengthen institutional normality, eliminate authoritarianism and restore "a climate of social peace, dialogue and understanding. But journalists like sharks smell blood and ignore the claims of the people, preferring broadcasting the speeches of Zelaya.
LG, the Honduran Constitution says:
-Article 42 strips citizenship rights from those who call for the re-election or continuing (beyond the term) of the President of the Republic.
- Article 239 not only prohibits the re-election of a President of the Republic, but calls for the immediate removal from public office and disqualification from any political office for 10 years any person who calls for a change in that prohibition.
- Article 373 gives the power to amend the Constitution solely to the National Congress, with no role for any “referendum”.
- Article 374 prohibits any amendments to the prohibition of a multi-term President of the Republic.
These are the articles that were read aloud in Congress today.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ARTICULO 239.- El ciudadano que haya desempeñado la titularidad del Poder Ejecutivo no podrá ser Presidente o Designado.
El que quebrante esta disposición o proponga su reforma, asà como aquellos que lo apoyen directa o indirectamente, cesarán de inmediato en el desempeño de sus respectivos cargos, y quedarán inhabilitados por diez años para el ejercicio de toda función pública.
.
TRANSLATION - Article 239.- The citizen that has been the head of the Execute Branch cannot be President or Vice-President (again).
Whoever violates this law or proposes its reform, as well as those that support such violation directly or indirectly, will immediately cease in their functions and will be unable to hold any public office for a period of 10 years.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ARTICULO 205.- Corresponden al Congreso Nacional las atribuciones siguientes:
…
15. Declarar si ha lugar o no a formación de causa contra el Presidente
20. Aprobar o improbar la conducta administrativa del Poder Ejecutivo, Poder Judicial y ….
.
TRANSLATION - Article 205 - Congress has the following authority:
15 To indict the President
20 To approve or disapprove of the administrative conduct of the Execurive Branch, …
Interesting posts ,I have been out of the country for awhile so it has been hard to get a feel for what is happening.
I've been in Honduras for 18 years and in the end things don't change much politically and I don't think anyone has represented the country with any sort of sense of pride or determination to make the country any better.
It is hard to imagine Mel Zelaya as a champion of the poor given his family's background.
It seems obvious as well he was a failure as any kind of administrator,on the other hand I find it hard to support the den of theives that pulled off this coup.
In the end this is what people will remember soldiers storming the presidential palace and the amount of damage done to the country will be far worse than anything Zelaya has done or could have done.It should have been handled in a different way.
So these are the people we have to look forward to in the upcoming elections.
It is too bad Zelaya was such a muddler because forging closer ties with South America is a good dea,Brazil,Argentina,Chile and yes even Venezuela(nothing wrong with cheap oil).The U.S.A is on the decline and that relationship has been a little one sided.
I'm here with my wife and kids but I am so disappointed with the direction the country is going I think I will be out soon,if the poverty continues like it is the crime is just going to get worse ,we can't even buy ground up bone for my dogs any more because people are now eating it (it is only 4 lps a pound).I can't see anyone coming along and improving things and I don't think Hondurans are involved enough to demand a government that actually represents them.
Any insight on Costa Rica these days ,or Panama.
Just plain desinformation and brainwashing. Watch some more coup plotters tv.
The "powers that be" have studied well. I suggest you go read Public Opinion by Walter Lippmann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Opinion).
As in the courts, it isn't the truth that matters so much as what you can "get people to believe."
Sad, but true. Yet, we should fight those that mislead with the same zeal but use truth and our own Public Opinion pieces...
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